The Lemon Law for Everything Else

"SteveLehto" (stevelehto) 09/29/2014 at 13:00 • Filed to: None

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My client bought a brand new $35,000 boat that never returned to the dock under its own power during the time that he owned it. Most state Lemon Laws do not cover boats but there is a Federal law that does.

Michigan is one of the leading states in the nation for boat ownership. Not only does the state touch four of the five Great Lakes, it is chock full of watery wonder inland. As a result, boat dealers are quite common here and many people have boats tucked into their garages at their suburban homes and holiday weekends see the roads packed with boats being trailered to vacation spots. Despite this, like most other states, our Lemon Law does not protect boat buyers.

My client – we'll call him Joe – had grown up in a household which always had boats and had owned a few as an adult. He finally decided to spring for a brand new one and dropped a little over $35,000 in the process. Like many boats out there, the engine was made by one manufacturer and the rest of the boat was made by another. He took delivery at a dealer not far from his house. He lived on a lake and planned on using the boat there.

The first time he put it in the water he tooled around a little bit and the engine died. He couldn't get it restarted so he flagged down a neighbor who tossed him a line and towed him back to where he could pull the boat from the water. He returned it to the dealer who assured him it was a minor problem which could be fixed. A few days later, the cycle repeated: Boat in water – engine dies – towed to shore – dealer "repairs" – boat returned to Joe. Lather, rinse, repeat. In total, it happened four times.

Recognizing that this loop could go on infinitely, Joe called the engine manufacturer who sent a rep to assist the dealer with the repair. They assured him that this repair – the fifth – would take. It didn't. He called back and asked for further help. The engine manufacturer blamed the boat company. The boat company blamed the engine company. He asked the dealer to buy the boat back and the dealer refused; they said he should complain to the manufacturer. Joe called and asked me about the Lemon Law.

I had to explain to Joe that Michigan's !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! does not apply to boats. But, there is a law which does cover boats and other large consumer products which are not automobiles. The !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! covers any consumer goods sold with a warranty. It is a Federal Law and, therefore, can be invoked in any state. In many respects it is like the lemon law in that it requires the manufacturer to repair a defective product under warranty and, should that not be possible, the manufacturer is liable for damages and can be ordered by a court to buy back the product or replace it.

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One major difference between the Lemon Law and the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act is that most state lemon laws specify a bright line number of repair attempts at which point a vehicle becomes a lemon. In Michigan, that number is four. The Magnuson Moss Warranty Act simply states that the product must be subject to a "reasonable" number of repair attempts. Arguably, that could be less than four and I have seen manufacturers say it could be more than four for a complex product.

We argued that in Joe's case five was certainly enough, especially considering the safety issue. Each time his boat stalled, it stranded him in the middle of a lake. True, he did manage to get help each time he was stranded but who is to say that would always be the case? And, what if Joe wanted to take his boat out onto Lake Michigan? He would have been insane to try that in this boat. We filed suit against the seller, the boat manufacturer and the engine manufacturer. Shortly after, they settled. They agreed to buy Joe's boat back and pay his !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! – another item which can be recovered under the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act.

What was wrong with Joe's boat? Who knows? It is not necessary for the consumer to diagnose or explain what is wrong with the product – it is enough if the consumer can prove that the product is defective and was not cured within a reasonable number of repair attempts.And in Joe's case, they never once claimed there was nothing wrong with the boat. Every time he brought it in they threw new and different parts at the problem.

As noted, the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act covers any consumer goods sold with a warranty. This means that there is hope for buyers of defective recreational vehicles, personal water craft, boats, motorcycles, and so on, regardless of what your state's Lemon Law does or does not cover. The law even covers automobiles for those occasions where the Lemon Law might not offer coverage or simply to give overlapping coverage for that extra oomph in filing suit.

There are some nuances to this law which I cannot possibly shoehorn into this space so I would recommend you do a little research and maybe talk with a local attorney if you have questions. The key here is that while the typical Lemon Law covers only automobiles there is a "Lemon Law" for everything else: the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act.

Follow me on Twitter: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

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Steve Lehto has been practicing consumer protection and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! for 23 years in Michigan. He taught Consumer Protection at the University of Detroit Mercy School of Law for ten years and wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . He also wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

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jariten1781 > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 13:06

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Magnuson Moss Warranty Act AKA the always mentioned, never really understood 'mod warranty protection act' on every car forum in the history of the internet ever.

SteveLehto > jariten1781 09/29/2014 at 13:08

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I've actually seen guys who say "There is NO Federal Lemon Law!" (Because it's not CALLED that.) But none of the laws are called "lemon laws" - at least not officially. This law is actually really simple and powerful. Keep it in mind whenever you have a problem with a major product purchase that came with a warranty.

Blunion05 drives a pink S2000 (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 13:12

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Can the Magnusson Moss Warranty Act apply to electronics such as PCs and televisions, etc.?

I'm going to have read more about this Act, never heard of it before.

SteveLehto > Blunion05 drives a pink S2000 (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) 09/29/2014 at 13:14

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Yes, if it came with a manufacturer's warranty.

Takuro Spirit > jariten1781 09/29/2014 at 13:21

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All I remember from my days changing oil is that in the back of the filter books was a big WARRANTY page, listing the Magnuson Moss act, that ANY manufacturer cannot deny a vehicle warranty for NOT USING its own filters, that the aftermarket filters on the book were made to or above OE standards and therefore would not void any manufacturer implied warranty.

revarthurbelling > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 13:43

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I can't understand why they didn't just swap out the motor?

UncleWalty > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 13:43

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What make was the boat?

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 13:44

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So my question is, did you get another client out of the deal? You did say they bought back the boat - and surely sold it again to another unsuspecting owner...

KeatonP > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 13:44

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Is that a Ford Explorer towing that thing???

DjM1390 > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 13:44

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Brand new boat. $35k. What kind of boat was this? Don't need to know the manufacture but that has got to be on the smaller side (sub 20 feet).

SteveLehto > revarthurbelling 09/29/2014 at 13:45

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I suspect that the engine mfr was hoping the boat mfr would get stuck picking up the tab on the buyback.

I see huge companies do things all the time that seemingly make no sense. Some of it simply might be that from the company's perspective, this one client's problem wasn't big enough to merit the attention it needed.

Tohru > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 13:46

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Ah, boats. A giant hole in a lake that you throw money in.

The second-happiest day in a boat owner's life is when they buy their boat. The happiest is when they sell it.

Prophet of hoon > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 13:46

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I can just hear the next client say "I read Steve who said since this has a warranty that I can sue under"... of course, the client will be the one who put a 200 shot of NOS on his honda and blew it in to many, small, sparkly bits. To save me some aggravation, perhaps you might want to add a brief paragraph about fitness for purpose? ;) you can take tylenol for a major surgery, but it may not be fit to provide the expected benefit.... despite being advertised as a pain reliever.

Maxaxle > Takuro Spirit 09/29/2014 at 13:46

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Well, what WOULD violate the warranty, in terms of aftermarket parts?

SteveLehto > DjM1390 09/29/2014 at 13:46

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Yes (smaller boat). The boat in the pic is a stock photo. The guy was planning on using it mostly in the lake he lived on and the lake wasn't all that big.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 13:46

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Hey Steve, do you have any experience with the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act and how it covers modded cars? It's always mentioned on forums that unless the manufacturer can show that the modification is what caused the failure, the warranty should still be good, but it would be good to hear the perspective of someone who has actual legal expertise instead of the hoons of teh interwebs.

David E. Davis > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 13:46

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,,

David E. Davis > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 13:47

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Did anyone look into bad fuel at the lake?

davedave1111 > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 13:47

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Is there no US equivalent to our Sale of Goods act? Under that, goods must be fit for the purpose sold - regardless of any warranties. Plainly, a powerboat that doesn't power isn't fit for purpose.

SteveLehto > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom 09/29/2014 at 13:48

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The question is what kind of warranty they sold it with in that transaction since it was used. I HAVE represented the same vehicle twice (one time in my career). I may have to write that one up one of these days.

SteveLehto > KeatonP 09/29/2014 at 13:48

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I don't think so but it is a stock photo. For all I know the picture was taken in Estonia.

SteveLehto > Tohru 09/29/2014 at 13:49

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Truth.

revarthurbelling > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 13:49

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Some of it simply might be that from the company's perspective, this one client's problem wasn't big enough to merit the attention it needed.

Until he got the lawyer involved. :)

BTW, IANAL, nor have I had much dealings with attorneys (thankfully!), but you do yeoman's work with this blog. I'm fascinated by the various cases you write about.

Did you see the story the other day about the handicapped girl in Cali who couldn't park her hearse in the apartment complex? Wondering what your take on that is?

SteveLehto > Prophet of hoon 09/29/2014 at 13:50

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Oh, there is so much ground to cover and such little space . . .

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > David E. Davis 09/29/2014 at 13:51

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That's actually a common issue with boats. Most boats aren't designed to use ethanol in their fuel (they might have changed with the prevalence of e10 mixes, but I don't follow boat engine manufacturers as closely as I used to). The dockside gas pumps in my area all have ethanol-free fuel, but if he was trailering it, I would imagine that he's just using normal gas station fuel since it's way cheaper than going to a marine supplier.

SNL-LOL > Maxaxle 09/29/2014 at 13:52

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Well, all those +100bhp flash upgrades that E9x 335i owners brag about surely would*

*I'm not a lawyer

Tohru > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 13:52

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Out of curiosity, who were Magnuson and Moss? Why did they get a whole warranty act named after them?

Prophet of hoon > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 13:53

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there is, and I wouldn't miss the stories for all the tea in China. I swear I should have a sign on my desk that can be turned on which says "how, exactly, did you do that? because what you're just described not only violates most moral codes but several Newtonian laws." I'd use it every day.

SNL-LOL > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 13:54

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Estonia doesn't have a good rep on watercraft safety does she?

SteveLehto > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 09/29/2014 at 13:54

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This is an area where you will always see a fight. It is true in most lemon law settings too - if the problem with the product is the result of abuse, misuse or alteration by the consumer, then the warrantor can say that the problem is not a "Defect". The question is - did the one cause the other? Sometimes it is an obvious Yes or No and sometimes it is a gray area. You put a remote start on your car and now you have intermittent electrical problems? They will jump all over that to say it gets them off the hook. It you want to argue that the two are not related, it may end up being an expensive proposition (i.e., hiring experts etc and having them dissect and analyze the car).

Talk to a local attorney in any case to see how things might be in your jurisdiction.

SteveLehto > David E. Davis 09/29/2014 at 13:55

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Yes. They also did all of the typical stuff like check the fuel injectors, the fuel filter etc.

SteveLehto > davedave1111 09/29/2014 at 13:57

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Yes, we have a thing called the Uniform Commercial Code which codifies that. The problem with it is that you can bring a case and win but you have to pay your own attorney's fees and court costs in most states. So, a defendant can drag its feet and force you to pay more than it is worth, even if you win. The Mag Moss Act allows for the recovery of fees and costs if you prevail - making cases like this economically worth pursuing. (Same thing with most states' lemon laws.)

Have Jeep, will travel. > jariten1781 09/29/2014 at 13:58

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basically if you put a cold air intake or an exhaust on your car, and the motor happens to throw a rod, they cannot deny warranty coverage unless they can prove that failure was actually caused by your aftermarket part. You, I and the manufacturer know it had no hand in the failure but thats their out. This law prevents that. They have to prove it. However, If you put a supercharger on your M3 and it trashes the upper rod bearings, well thats an easy one to prove, that bearing was never designed for that load. Other things are a fishing expedition by the manufacturer. Biggest/worst is Cummins from my understanding. Anything that gets attatched to that motor that didnt come from the factory, or spotty service records voids the motor warranty. You will have a fight on your hands.

SteveLehto > revarthurbelling 09/29/2014 at 13:59

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Thanks for the note. I have fun writing these, more so when people tell me they enjoy them.

I did not read the article but I saw the headline. Weird case. Would they have let her park it elsewhere on the lot if she wasn't handicapped? Were they claiming it was too large for the space or that it was odd?

anon623729 > Tohru 09/29/2014 at 14:00

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Then why do people continue to buy boats?

ChargerGirlMass > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 14:00

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I had a boat a few years ago, a glastron that had an evinrude motor. Now, granted it was my first boat, so I probably screwed up a few things, but I managed to get myself stranded the first few times out in the water which I found to be disappointing. My only problem was I bought the boat used and after it was parked in my driveway it was mine, problems and all. The seller tried to give me a few hints, which turned out to not be hints at all. Then a family member, who claimed to be a boat repair genius said he could work on my boat for me, to be repaid in beer. He fixed a few small things on the engine and wouldn't you know the boat worked perfectly and flawlessly from that day until the day I sold it about a year and a half later.

That old line about"the 2 happiest in a boat owners life, the day you buy it and the day you sell it" applied to me in spades. It was fun but not worth. Nothing is scarier that being caught far from shore with no way to get back to dry land without help. It's not like a car. Thankfully I found boaters were a very helpful lot, since I'm sure that they all were stuck a few times as well.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > UncleWalty 09/29/2014 at 14:01

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Bayliner, probably.

SteveLehto > Tohru 09/29/2014 at 14:01

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The politicians who passed it. Oddly, there were three (two of whom were named Moss) according to Wikipedia. Which may or may not be authoritative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%…

Tohru > anon623729 09/29/2014 at 14:01

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Why do people stay in abusive relationships? Answer my question and you'll answer yours too.

SteveLehto > SNL-LOL 09/29/2014 at 14:02

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Or on vehicles capable of pulling a boat from the lake.

revarthurbelling > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 14:02

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Apparently they just thought it was creepy. And she wasn't listed as the tenant on the lease. Seems like there would be some kind of discrimination case if she wanted to pursue it. She's a mortuary student, apparently, so it's cool her car fits her professional aspirations, but a classless move by the apartment complex.

dmat > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 14:02

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reading your stories is like looking at a whole new world through a key hole. Its fascinating and we want more.

SteveLehto > ChargerGirlMass 09/29/2014 at 14:03

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The "payment in beer" worried me but I see it turned out well.

Thanks for the note.

DjM1390 > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 14:03

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Nice. In the lake's region of NH one is hard pressed to see anything in the show rooms for less than $50k. Those are mostly 24ft + runabouts with bigger motors. As a result I had a hard time contemplating only $35k for a boat. Thanks for the clarification!

SteveLehto > revarthurbelling 09/29/2014 at 14:04

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But she was handicapped, right? I suspect it is going to be a messy call no matter what ends up happening.

SteveLehto > dmat 09/29/2014 at 14:05

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Thanks. I might do a piece on looking through keyholes next . . . .

SteveLehto > DjM1390 09/29/2014 at 14:06

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I've repped people who bought much larger, as in $250K and up. You're talking some serious boat then - and amazingly, they have the same kinds of problems!

jalop1991 > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 14:06

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All that and you never once mentioned "implied warranty of merchantability".

TommyK154 > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 14:07

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I love your articles. These might be the most important articles on Jalopnik for car (or in this case boat) owners. You've taught me a lot about my rights as a consumer and auto owner. Thanks!

ChargerGirlMass > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 14:08

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Thankfully in this instance there were a few rednecks in the family tree :) If all he wanted was a case of beer for an hour or 2 of engine "tuning" then it was okay with me.

Takuro Spirit > Maxaxle 09/29/2014 at 14:09

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Cheap filters NOT made to OE standards.... performance parts.... parts not made for that application...

SteveLehto > jalop1991 09/29/2014 at 14:11

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Maybe next time. Try to keep it in bite-sized chunks (so I don't get those TL/DR responses we all love so much!)

SteveLehto > TommyK154 09/29/2014 at 14:12

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Thanks for the note. I'll keep writing them so long as people keep reading!

rmc63 > Takuro Spirit 09/29/2014 at 14:13

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Modifications such as power adders, stereo equipment, off-sized tires and wheels, etc.

UncleWalty > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 14:15

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As a huge fan of Michigan water and lakes, I have to say you could not have picked a less appropriate picture to associate with all of the beauty in that lovely state. Where is this? The Rouge River?

rmc63 > revarthurbelling 09/29/2014 at 14:16

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It's very seldom the engine's fault when a vehicle shuts down unexpectedly. Most likely something electrical, ignition, or fuel related caused his problem.

DjM1390 > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 14:21

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That they do. Family friend bought a 27ft bow-rider that went through 3 out-drives (the fancy counter-rotating props kind) and a motor within the first 3 months. Obviously most of that time was spent in the shop. I don't know what they had to go through but they got a replacement boat equipped with the equivalent motor and drive from the other major supplier.

IGetPwnedOften > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 14:21

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Having owned the grand total of one lemon in my time, I know how frustrating it is when this happens and I'm glad to you got it sorted for him.

Having said that, the engineer in me really wants to know what was wrong with that boat now...

SteveLehto > UncleWalty 09/29/2014 at 14:22

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Stock photo. I wanted one where you could see more of the boat. This is what you get when you have no budget for these things (sorry).

LodestarRunner > DjM1390 09/29/2014 at 14:23

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My lake has a size limit of 19 feet, measured bow to transom. Most of the boats on my lake are in that price range.

SteveLehto > IGetPwnedOften 09/29/2014 at 14:23

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We never learned. As far as I know, they never fixed it. When they bought it back it was in the non-running condition it had been in the whole time.

Pete C. Shortt > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 14:27

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Start working at home with Google! It's by-far the best job I've had. Last Wednesday I got a brand new BMW since getting a check for $6474 this - 4 weeks past. I began this 8-months ago and immediately was bringing home at least $77 per hour. I work through this link, go to tech tab for work detail

———————————> www.jobs700.com

The Devil Drives a Mustang (Rotary Pending) > IGetPwnedOften 09/29/2014 at 14:28

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I suspect that there was a gremlin living somewhere in the engine compartment out of sight. As soon as Joe took the boat out on the water the gremlin would count to 1000 and then disconnect the spark plug wires and then quickly plug them back in when he heard the latch on the compartment cover being opened.

drdude > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 14:29

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What is the legal definition of warranty that applies to this? Does this apply as an implied warranty when a product is sold to do something, and it fails?

get-nick > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 14:32

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It really bothers me that so many people get shafted by dealers and private sellers because they A) don't do 30 minutes of searching online and B) don't consult a lawyer. Consumers really do hurt themselves when they aren't willing to pursue legal and justifiable recourse from the seller.

SteveLehto > drdude 09/29/2014 at 14:33

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Yes. Section 2310(d)(1) says: "a consumer who is damaged by the failure of a supplier, warrantor, or service contractor to comply with any obligation under this chapter, or under a written warranty, implied warranty, or service contract, may bring suit for damages and other legal and equitable relief—"

Consult with a local attorney etc. Thanks for the question.

dct > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 09/29/2014 at 14:34

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When I was in HS/ early college years I worked for a boat rental company, and we rented Bayliners and Sea Rays. Those things got the crap kicked out of them for years (we maintained them well) and were fine. Sure, some of the fit and finish isn't perfect but for >$20K less than a Sea Ray, that's what I'd buy with my own money.

Full disclosure: my father owns a "top tier" manufacturer's midsize fishing boat...

burner'down > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 14:34

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My family had a power boat when I was a kid that was prone to crapping out; apparently the fuel line liked to separate from the fuel tank. (It was an outboard motor, so no real fire risk.) We kept a canoe paddle on board, but one day I was running it around a headland from our dock to the local boat launch, and there it went. Totally dead in the water. It was the end of the season and we were pulling it out to go into storage, so it was just me and my dad moving it. I was 16 and had my boat license but not my driver license, so I got to take the boat by myself while my dad drove over to the boat launch. I got out the paddle and did my best, but it was slow going and I was out of sight of both the boat launch and the dock. Apparently he freaked out a bit and asked anyone at the boat launch to keep an eye out for me, because just as I was coming around the headland another boat pulled up and asked if I needed help. I gratefully took a tow into the launch from the very nice State Parks officer and the men on the prison work-release detail, who had been on their way out to an island in the lake to tend to a campsite. Good times!

UncleWalty > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 14:40

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I figured as much...but this is Michigan in my mind:

SteveLehto > UncleWalty 09/29/2014 at 14:41

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Beautiful. Where is that?

DjM1390 > LodestarRunner 09/29/2014 at 14:41

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With a limit of 19 ft you probably don't see many of the boats/brands that I've grown to think as commonplace on Lake Winnipesaukee in NH. With no real size limit there are privately owned boats up to around 45-50 ft. Whenever I see a brand spankin' new boat it is usually a 24ft+ Formula, Cobalt, Chris-Craft, Regal, Sea-Ray or the like. Those brands command $80k+ for their most basic 20+ ft boats. It is ridiculous.

Built BMW Tough > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 14:43

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Thanks Steve, very good article. Most people don't know that there is a lemon law that covers anything beyond cars and trucks.

M54B30 > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 14:44

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every time I read your article, I read it in the voice of Bill Handel (of Handel on the Law fame)

SteveLehto > Built BMW Tough 09/29/2014 at 14:45

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Thanks for the note. I'm doing what I can to get the word out.

UncleWalty > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 14:51

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North Lake Leelanau.

georgedrunk2 > DjM1390 09/29/2014 at 14:59

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and people wonder why I stick with sail. 35K will get you a decked out New Mcgregor 26D with a big motor, trailer, and some extra folding money for a nice chartplotter. 35 K on the used market can get you a decked out sub 10 year old Catalina 32, a brand new diesel outboard, and a full rig and sail replacement.

you powerboat guys are whack.

DjM1390 > georgedrunk2 09/29/2014 at 15:10

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sail can certainly be fun. However, I don't think taking my guests tubing or wakeboarding will work particularly well of the back of a Catalina 32. Especially so if there is no wind that day in the cove. I also like to be able to get to the number of restaurants and sandbars around the lake in a predictable amount of time. I agree that powerboats can be ridiculously over-priced. That is mostly a function of people opting for features that are completely unnecessary and costly. For my purposes though, a powerboat is the only way to go.

sellphones2493 > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 15:12

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The two best days for boat owners:

1. The day they buy it
2. The day they sell it

Ltd783 > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 15:15

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Ahh, the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act. Been around almost 40 years, yet it is still unheard of by service techs around the country who still use the phrase "that'll void your warranty", as if it's still one, large thing that can be "voided" as a whole.

SteveLehto > UncleWalty 09/29/2014 at 15:16

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Very familiar with it. Spent a lot of time on Old Mission and I have a brother who lives just south of TC.

SteveLehto > Ltd783 09/29/2014 at 15:19

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Good point. My "lemon law" lawsuits usually have six or seven counts - only one of which is the lemon law.

Thanks for the note.

UncleWalty > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 15:20

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We vacation in Leland every summer. Driving the 9 hours from Pittsburgh is worth it.

SteveLehto > UncleWalty 09/29/2014 at 15:23

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Really? Wow. From SE Michigan, it's more like a 4 hour drive if you have no traffic (good luck with that!). I love it up there. I also spend a lot of time in the Upper Peninsula. Are you from MICH originally or how did you end up with that as a vacation destination?

Ltd783 > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 15:26

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I just meant the requirement that the manufacturer show that a modification, or non OEM part is directly related to a failure, as opposed to their previous practice of denying all warranty claims on vehicles with off brand oil filters, custom wheels, etc.

Some dealership service centers are getting better though. My brother's Genesis coupe bent a rod on an accidental 5-2 downshift, and even going into the dealer with his cold air intake, and other "racy" mods, and given the honest story, the dealership put in a new crate engine at no charge to him.

NatR > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 15:26

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She was handicapped and the car was fully registered as a handicapped vehicle (plates, tags, etc, etc).

If I recall the article correctly, she would be allowed to park in the designated guest parking spot for her mother's apartment according to the building owners/management but they did not want/did not allow her to park in the building's designated handicapped space(s). It was stated that her vehicle would not fit into the guest parking spots (whether due to sheer size or due to specific accommodations made to it for her I don't think was mentioned).

So the big question seemed to be whether the ADA would allow her to park in the building's designated handicapped spot even though she wasn't listed on the lease and the building owner's/management objected to it.

Poundingsand > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 15:27

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As someone ho is in a bit of trouble with the law right now for doing just that, I implore you to do so!

I kid I kid! Thanks for the great read...who knew an article on the law could be so entertaining.

SteveLehto > Ltd783 09/29/2014 at 15:29

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Another good point. I had a few people ask about that - apparently a hot topic on some of the boards. I've seen a manufacturer deny a warranty claim because of a K&N air filter. They were wrong to do it but they did it anyway.

UncleWalty > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 15:30

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My Mom is from Chelsea and I went to Michigan State. Quite honestly, with the economic challenges Michigan is dealing with, most of the people we see in Leelanau these days are from Ohio, Indiana and to a lesser degree, PA. I only wish we had a direct flight from PIT to TVC.

Poundingsand > burner'down 09/29/2014 at 15:31

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Losing power in a boat can be a scary experience. I had the same thing happen (fuel line blow out) while leaving the harbor at Isthmus Cove on Catalina Island. Thankfully my boat was a sailboat, so I raised the jib and sailed out, then fixed the line once I was in open water, far from any other boats I could potentially run into. Couldn't imagine what that would have been like in a powerboat.

Ltd783 > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 15:33

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That's kind of the Catch-22 advice I've given on modding a warrantied car to friends. Yes, the dealership will be wrong to deny a claim on an unrelated failure, but you're still stuck standing in the service bay that day with a denied claim, and then your best remedy is to ...hire a lawyer :-)

SteveLehto > Ltd783 09/29/2014 at 15:37

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For the sake of clarification, the section others have asked about is 2302 which reads in part:

" No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name."

So they can't tell you - "You must use only Motorcraft parts or we will void your warranty."

In theory.

Ltd783 > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 15:45

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Exactly.

I like to think this how I got a free maintenance plan on my leased car. The salesman knew I was an attorney, (hence why I'm guessing he didn't even attempt to tell me dealership service was required) and when they tried selling me the service plan I replied "Nah, I just do my own oil changes at home".

Cue a quick conversation with his manager, and the $500 ish 3 year plan was mine for free. I guess it's worth $500 to them to sell the car later with proof of all dealer service, and now that they've got me coming in every 3 months guaranteed, to try to up sell parts; though they've been good about not doing that so far too.

Dave-O > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 15:47

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anyone know of an equivalent canadian law?

SteveLehto > Ltd783 09/29/2014 at 15:48

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Good idea. That is one of the benefits of NOT doing the oil changes yourself - the paperwork can probably be retrieved if you need it. I have had a few clients with hobbled cases who did their own oil changes and had zero proof of it (other than their own word).

SteveLehto > Dave-O 09/29/2014 at 15:49

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I know zero about Canadian law so if anyone knows, please pitch in!

GoPadge > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 15:49

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We've been through a similar process with a Travel Trailer that leaked. It took getting a lawyer involved, but we did get it bought back and had our legal costs covered.

Zendax > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 15:50

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You'd think at some point they would just replace the engine outright.

DrPain55 > SteveLehto 09/29/2014 at 15:52

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Good ole boats. Grew up on Lake Monroe in Indiana and we went through 4 boats plus 3 seadoos and 1 stand up Jet Ski. Like they aways say boat stands for Bust Out Another Thousand.

SteveLehto > GoPadge 09/29/2014 at 15:56

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Nice. What state are you in?

SteveLehto > Zendax 09/29/2014 at 15:57

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You'd think. Reminds me of the car companies that will blindly replace short blocks all day long when it is obviously not a run of bad short blocks . . . They are trying to save a few pennies and costing themselves dollars in the long run.